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War Metal Wiki talk:Standards/Tyrant
Decks Card Accessibility Accessibility of cards is defined in increasing order as follows, notice if decks have owned cards of multiple category (Like Vaporwing and T-46) it will always be considered to be the most difficult type available: #T-46 Leonidas limited time offer, no longer available #Legendary Card from Phobos Packs 25 per pack, % chance per pack #Legendary Card from Nexus, Blight and Purity Packs 25 per pack, % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Purity Packs 25 per pack, 3 chances, 21 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Nexus, Blight and Phobos Packs 25 per pack, 3 chances, 20 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Rare Cards from Phobos Packs 25 per pack, % chance per pack OR 25 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Rare Cards from Nexus, Blight and Purity Packs 25 per pack, % chance per pack OR 25 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Uncommon Cards from Nexus and Blight Packs 25 per pack, 2 chances, 16 Uncommon cards, effectively % chance per pack OR 10 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Uncommon Cards from Purity and Phobos Packs 25 per pack, 2 chances, 15 Uncommon cards, effectively % chance per pack OR 10 per card from Core Card Vault #Legendary Promotional Cards 175 per card, can be accessed via Promo Card Vault #Promotional Cards 25 per card, can be accessed via Promo Card Vault #Faction Reward Cards Requires both Faction level and Loyalty to unlock, Loyalty resets on leaving Faction #Tournament Achievement Cards Requires a minimum amount of participants to count #Tournament Rating Cards Requires a minimum amount of participants to count #Raid Reward Cards Requires active participation of multiple Raid members #Level Reward Cards Requires massive grinding of #Legendary Card from Homeworld Packs 60k per pack, % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Homeworld Packs 60k per pack, 3 chances, 20 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Rare Cards from Homeworld Packs 60k per pack, % chance per pack OR 25 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Uncommon Cards from Homeworld Packs 60k per pack, 2 chances, 15 Uncommon cards, effectively % chance per pack OR 10 per card from Core Card Vault #Legendary Card from Gold Packs 5k per pack, % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Gold Packs 5k per pack, 3 chances, 46 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Rare Card from Gold Packs 5k per pack, % chance per pack OR 25 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Uncommon Card from Gold Packs 5k per pack, 2 chances, 37 Uncommon cards, effectively % chance per pack OR 10 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Enclave Packs 10k per pack, 3 chances, 20 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Rare Card from Enclave Packs 10k per pack, % chance per pack OR 25 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Uncommon Card from Enclave Packs 10k per pack, 2 chances, 16 Uncommon cards, effectively % chance per pack OR 10 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Silver Packs 1k per pack, 4 chances, 36 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #More than rewarded number of copies of Uncommon Card from Silver Packs 1k per pack, 2 chances, 17 Uncommon cards, effectively % chance per pack OR 10 per card from Core Card Vault #More than rewarded number of copies of Common Cards from Bronze Packs 200 per pack, 6 chances, 28 Common cards, effectively % chance per pack #Speedy Achievement Cards #Other Achievement Cards #Tournament Participation Cards #Reputation Reward Cards and Arena Reward Cards #Mission Reward Cards Simply speaking, an Eva II spam only required Reputation Grinding, that is pretty low in gold cost too. A deck with Vaporwing would cost 25 . Hakdo 17:32, February 1, 2012 (UTC), based on the rephrasement framework by Rewlf2 The 3.1% Rule What is "the 3.1% rule", for instance?--Ryo Sangnoir 15:30, December 18, 2011 (UTC) The "3.1% rule" is a rule based on a probability that I found while mulling through Rare concentration. Specifically, the rule means the chance to get a designated Rare card from a card pack of matching set. The Packs XML has it clear: Each pack has 13% chance to pull a Legendary instead of a Rare. With some DPL previewing, I discovered the following: * There are 5 Legendary cards and 28 Rare cards in the Standard Set, all from Gold Packs only * There are 14 Rare cards in the Enclave Set * 5 Legendary cards and 20 Rare cards in the Homeworld Set * 4 Legendary cards and 10 Rare cards in other Sets So, the probability that I pull a designated Rare from a particular pack is: * Gold: (100-13)/28 = /28round4}}% * Enclave: 100/14 = % * Homeworld: (100-13)/20 = /20round4}}% * Other Packs: (100-13)/10 = /10round4}}% And that for a designated Legendary is: * Gold: 13/5 = % * Enclave: 0% * Homeworld: 13/5 = % * Other Packs: 13/4 = % As you can see, The chance of pulling a Standard Rare is only 0.5 percentage points more likely than pulling a Standard Legendary. Hence the "no more than 1 copy of Standard Rare" stated below. Yes, that's the wall of text that I separated from the legacy To-Do Talk page. Hakdo 16:10, December 18, 2011 (UTC) Deck Restrictions Cards Permitted In Decks Posted Under TyrantMissionStrategy *Promo cards: 1 is too many. I have to say we should assume people to have never obtained a War Bond at all. *Nexus cards, Blight cards, Purity cards: Limit use of them to only those being rewarded through missions. 1 more copy than rewarded amount is too many, again because they cost Bonds. For example, no decks with 3 Fury Walkers because you only get 2 from M45. *Raid rewards: 1 is too many. I have to say we should assume people to have never joined a successful Raid at all. *Faction rewards: 1 is too many. I have to say we should assume people to have never joined a Faction at all. *Rep rewards: The following are acceptable on spam amounts (they will be unlocked on your way of fighting through main Missions): **Impulse Walker (after M18) **Moloch (after M24) **Fortified Extractor (after M35) **Ghost (after M34) **Assembly Plant (after M47) **Vorpal Tank (after M53) **Irradiated Infantry (after M59) **Sky Watcher (after M65) **Cypher (after M72) **Exhaust (after M79) **Lumbering Ogre (after M84) **Onslaught Lead (after M90) **Grenadier (after M96) **Repenter (after M103) **Captor (after M114) **Righteous Punisher (after M119) **Microgen (after M124) **Pandemonium (after M131) **Ectoplasm (after M139) **Emanuel (after M144, but you can't spam a Commander card) :The following are acceptable, but decks using them need to have 1% better win rate than without them: :*Eva :*Dalia :*Attalia :For other rep rewards, 1 is too many. *Arena rewards: Not a problem for me, since Arena grinding costs neither Energy, Bonds, Gold nor Stamina. Hakdo 03:42, November 9, 2011 (UTC) *Tournament rewards: Let see... 5 Uncommons and 5 Rares in a random basis, that's 20% chance for a particular Uncommon per tourney play and 20% chance for a particular Rare per top 25% finish. Not a problem for me as long as they get the Gold to burn. Again, needs to boost win rate by 1% per such card. Hakdo 03:28, November 10, 2011 (UTC) *Achievement rewards: Depends on the mission required for the achievement. For example, you can't use Fighter Jet (Common theme) on M27 or lower, Razogoth's Heir (Free Tartarus) on M112 or lower, Barrier (Join the Righteous) on M115 or lower, and so on. Other than that, I want to see significantly improved win rate, by 1% per card maybe? Except the following cards used on these missions: **Jet Trooper (Standard Conqueror, for M29+) **Rifter (Typhon's Conqueror, for M42+ and side missions) **Poseidon (Nexus Conqueror, for M66+ and side missions since Nexus) **Lord of Tartarus (Blight Conqueror, for M91+ and side Missions since Blight) **Mech Aid (Purity Conqueror, for M120+ and side missions since Purity) **Soot Launcher (Homeworld Conqueror, for M145+ and side missions since HW) *Side mission rewards: Again, I want to see significantly improved win rate, by 1% per card maybe? Meaning I'd rather not see decks with Exodrone when the best replacement only trails by 0.6% in win rate. *Level rewards: The following are acceptable on spam amounts (they will be unlocked on your way of fighting through main Missions): :*Avatar (after M47) :The following are acceptable, but decks using them need to have 1% better win rate than without them: :*Destructive Ram :Other level rewards are basically the case of "1 is too many" due to insane amounts of grinding needed. *Other Standard cards: Limit use of them to 1 more copy than being rewarded through missions, due to the randomness of card packs. (Yes, I really meant it. Chance to get a designated Legendary from a Gold Pack is 2.6%, (13% divided among 5 Legendaries) that to get a designated Rare is only 3.1% (28 Rares to share the remaining 87%)) *Enclave cards: Limit use of them to 2 more copies than being rewarded through missions. (it's much less random for Enclave Packs, with 7.14% chance to get a designated Rare) *Homeworld cards: Limit use of them to 1 more copy than being rewarded through missions. (Due to its high cost - enough to buy 12 Gold Packs. Chance to get a designated Legendary from a HW Pack is 2.6%, (13% divided among 5 Legendaries) that to get a designated Rare is 4.35% (20 Rares to share the remaining 87%)) Hakdo 17:02, December 2, 2011 (UTC) Smart PlayerDeck Template For TyrantMissionStrategy I was wondering about the possibility of a smart PlayerDeck template for TyrantMissionStrategy that is able to take the restrictions into consideration when people attempt to provide values to the template. Something along the lines of: If a card is provided as a param value that is not permitted, the template returns some kind of notice text when published instead of the card image. Possible? If not for some of the more complex restrictions, perhaps simply for the ones that happen most frequently, such as using Dracorex as commander? Slivicon 16:21, December 28, 2011 (UTC) Deck Order I had thought it best when working with a PlayerDeck and similar decks posted underneath using the EvalDecks template that we keep the order by win rate descending, with the highest win rate holding the PlayerDeck spot. If someone else finds a deck with a higher win rate (as long as it doesn't break any theme stated in the article, such as "no warbond-only cards, or minimum win rate = v%"), that deck takes the PlayerDeck spot with the new author/source and the older PlayerDeck takes it's place in the EvalDecks table with the note in the "deck" column " by Author X". This keeps credit where credit belongs (test results and tester names are separate). I think Ryo and Hakdo (and possibly others) may have a different view, so if that's the case, please provide feedback on how we should best be handling deck "instances" when win rates change, and new win rates are added, etc. Slivicon 12:21, December 18, 2011 (UTC) Since I am the first one to openly disagree on reigning standard, I should state exactly what I disagree on. * Order by descending win rates, I agree. * EvalDecks only includes decks that don't break any theme stated, I agree. *Keep credit for similarly-themed decks that did not get to use the PD template, I agree. * Deck with best win rate gets to use the PlayerDeck template, now this is the fragment I had some problem going along with. ** Before the rationale behind this fragment was stated, I believed that only the original deck deserves the PD templates; and break away decks that do not adhere to the theme, letting them get new PD templates. ** That way we can ensure those variations added do not drift away from said theme from "by minute amount" to "by too much" (say from Weaken/Heal dual major to Weaken/Heal dual minor to no Weaken and no Heal). ** This also gives the original author flexibility to decide if the better deck will be used on its own discretion. Only when there are 10 better variations that the fragment kicks in. ** Of course, there are cases where the original author doesn't bloody care anymore. For example, the "newly made" CF4 Grinding page, it was made by someone whose focus is only on best efficiency. Now that there are better efficiencies out there, that person is no longer doing anything about the page, not even updating the tables. I can tell from that person's Kong Forum posts. This will be one of the cases when the fragment kicks in. * But I have to admit that this fragment is far simpler. Still not convinced to uphold the fragment, however. Hakdo 13:48, December 18, 2011 (UTC) The difficulty I can see here is this: how do we know what the "theme" is? If someone posts a Righteous mono and someone else finds that 10 Vigils is better, I wouldn't necessarily want it replaced as I don't have anywhere near 10 Vigils and the former may be significantly easier to acquire. On the other hand, a change of one card to another readily-available card can be easily switched out. --Ryo Sangnoir 15:30, December 18, 2011 (UTC) Thanks for your feedback, guys. If I understand you both correctly, you don't think it is a good idea to swap out the PlayerDeck template contents with another in the EvalDecks table that has a higher win rate. Leave it as is, but order the EvalDecks table by order of win rate descending. As Ryo stated, it is not always clear what the "theme" is. I'm just about to start writing pages on standards to centralize everything and I'd like to use the talk pages for discussion to keep working on the standards and modifying/improving them. I'd like them to be in a central spot to point to, stay tuned. On a side note, I think it will help understand what the "theme" is of a PlayerDeck "instance" if we can add the "theme" after the name in parantheses, such as "No Warbond-Only Cards", etc. This is only where it's possible to state some kind of theme. The link to "limited card pools" I would like to see become a link to a current standard once we have it up. Slivicon 16:13, December 18, 2011 (UTC) Acceptable and Prefered Cards Would it be possible to get just a comma separated list of "acceptable" and "prefered" cards to place in Evaluate Deck's "Include Card" Filter? I think this would help a great many people when trying to build decks for others. --Catepillar 08:25, January 1, 2012 (UTC) *I don't know if that would be possible? Looking at Hakdo's list, it seems too complex to have a list of cards like that, as some cards are acceptable if they are a mission reward, but only for mission strategy pages after the mission where you received said reward. Then there are the cases of how many of a card is OK. You'd almost need a list per mission... Slivicon 23:52, January 21, 2012 (UTC) Draco and sorting... I'm thinking about allowing Draco into Eval tables. The idea of strategy pages is to present decks that are accessible to everyone and so far banning Draco decks made sense. However considering that last expansion gave 25 WB for free AND unlocked access to vault for all players draco is getting pretty common in players decks. some restrictions would be necessary maybe: have to be at least 3% better win rate and only in tables not the Player Deck Template? Also is there possibility to add auto soritng by highest win rate to Eval Tables? There is no easy way to change it in Visual mode and it the source it is not convinient. Wredniak 14:35, March 5, 2012 (UTC) "I'm thinking about allowing Draco into Eval tables. The idea of strategy pages is to present decks that are accessible to everyone and so far banning Draco decks made sense. However considering that last expansion gave 25 WB for free AND unlocked access to vault for all players draco is getting pretty common in players decks. some restrictions would be necessary maybe: have to be at least 3% better win rate and only in tables not the Player Deck Template?" Let me do some calcs first... There are: *28 rare cards in Standard Set *14 in Enclave Set *10 in Nexus Set *10 in Blight Set *10 in Purity Set *20 in Homeworld Set *20 in Phobos Set *56 in Promotional Set That means we have rare cards available in the Core Vault. 4 are picked in a 3-hour window. So the chance of picking Dracorex (Nexus Rare) for a given 3-hour window is round4}}%. Before v2.0, Promo cards are in the Core mix too, making the chance to be round4}}%. So we have / round4}}% higher chance of getting Draco in v2.0 compared to v1.10. But the 25 bonds I only see as loyalty prize, not free stuff. The no-Bond policy can still apply to Commons and Legendaries of Bond-only Packs, that's for sure; as for other Bond-only cards, I myself will still stick to no-Bond policy, though I'll make an exception if the bonded variation boosts winrate by... er... at least 5% PER BOND CARD? (10% for Promo Legends.) So let say you have a Beetle spam with Draco, giving you 99.3% winrate. That's 55% threshold for unbonded decks, meaning whenever a Draco deck with no other Bond cards can break 49.4% threshold, then the Draco Beetle spam will have to be wiped out. Hakdo 15:22, March 5, 2012 (UTC) "I'll make an exception if the bonded variation boosts winrate by... er... at least 5% PER BOND CARD?" 5% per WB Vault Card makes sense, provided that author post an alternative and it isn't Orbo. I think Draco is special case as most players will admit that it is a card that should be bought first and foremost so there is much higher probability it can be found in the player deck than any other WB card. Still there need to be some kind of rule and 5% makes sense. Wredniak 16:03, March 5, 2012 (UTC)